Those Gurus who propagate Karma as the means to Self-realization belongs to religion and yoga, not spirituality or Adyathma.+

 Q:~ T. L. B: - This is how my understanding sees Karma.

Karma is whatever it is. Yes, it is the play of duality forces, such as birth, living in the world universe, and death of the body-mind that is identity. "I," thought.

So even Gnani after true ‘Self ’-realization must be a player of these duality forces.

Look at all the Sages, including Ramana, Krishnamurti, and Nisargadatta, all died of cancer-type illness if I am not mistaken. So this to me is evidence that forces of karma will play out even for Enlightened Gnani.

So yes Karma is an illusion at Soul, witness, but to take part on Earth as a human being means living with "what is" or karma effects of part on Earth as a human being, means living with "what is" or karma effects of past.

A::~ Santthosh Kumaar:~ As per my conviction: ~

Those Gurus who propagate Karma as the means to Self-realization belong to religion and yoga, not Spirituality.

When the ‘Self’ is not form but formless, then whose karma? If the one who is born lives and dies is not the ‘Self,’ then the question of karma does not arise.

You are the false ‘Self’ (ego) within the false experience (waking). Thus, whatever action and inaction, past, present, and future belong to the waking experience, which is the dualistic illusion.

What happens to the dream entity that did good karma in the dream world and died and reincarnated in the next life and suffered but when the waking takes place the dream becomes unreal.

The waking becomes unreal when the waking entity (you) realizes the fact that it, itself (you) is not the ‘Self’ but the ‘Self’ is the Soul, which witnesses the coming and going of the three states in succession.

Thus neither the karma of the waking entity nor the karma of the dream entity has any meaning because the ‘Self’ is neither the waking entity nor the ‘Self’ is a dream entity but the ‘Self’ is the Soul.

You are not the ‘Self’ because you are the birth entity; you are bound by form, time, and space whereas the ‘Self’ is birthless and deathless because the ‘Self’ is formless, timeless, and spaceless existence then how the karma theory has any meaning when the karma theory based on the false ‘Self’ (birth entity) and false experience (world).

The karma theory is a religious fable meant for people who are fully immersed in the practical life and practical world believing the experience of the birth, life, death, and the world as reality.

If the ‘Self’ is birthless then what values the karma theory will have because it is based on birth, life, death, and rebirth. Thus, as per my conviction, the Karma theory is a merely religious and yogic fable.

Yes, Ramana, J. Krishnamurti, and Nisargadatta, all died of cancer-type illness. It does not make any difference if they die of cancer or not of cancer or any illness. Even Lord Krishna died of a painful death. The death is certain, the cause of death is irreverent to a Gnani. When the ‘Self’ is birthless then it is deathless. A Gnani is unconcerned to death because he is fully aware that the illusion is only a passing show.

The last words of Sage Ramana on the deathbed: - he says I am not going anywhere. He did not mean that his physical form, which was bound by birth, life, and death but the birthless ‘Self’, which is ever formless, timeless, and spaceless existence.

Thus, the karma theory has nothing to do with the birthless ‘Self’. Thus people’s painful death cannot be taken as evidence because, the Soul, the ‘Self’ is ever deathless because, it is birthless because it is a formless, timeless, and spaceless existence.

The karmic account is never-ending because one has to be born again and again to reap his good or bad karma carried forward from one life to the next. To end his karmic account he has to be born as a Muslim in his next birth because Islam does not believe in karma theory.

As per Sage Sankara: ~

The path of religion, the theory of karma, the path of yoga, and the path of wisdom were intended for different classes of people. The Advaitic wisdom is for the advanced seekers of truth. It deals with the nature of the ultimate Truth and Reality. It is meant for superior aspirants who have an inner urge to know the truth and it is not for those who are immersed in earthly desires.

The one who is born lives and dies in this world is not the Self. the world in which we exist is the dualistic illusion created out of the Soul, the Self, which is present in the form of consciousness. Thus, whatever karmas perfumed within the dualistic illusion is bound to be an illusion.

Sage Sankara says in Aparoksh Anubhuti: ~88. When the whole universe, movable and immovable, is known to be Atman, and thus the existence of everything else is negated, where is then any room to say that the body is Atman?

89. O enlightened one, pass your time always contemplating on Atman while you are experiencing all the results of Prarabdha; for it will cause you to feel distressed.

90. The theory one hears from the scripture, that Prarabdha does not lose its hold upon one even after the origination of the knowledge of Atman, is now being refuted.

91. After the origination of the knowledge of Reality, Prarabdha verily ceases to exist, inasmuch as the body and the like become non-existent; just as a dream does not exist in waking.

92. That Karma which is done in a previous life is known as Prarabdha (which produces the present life). But such Karma cannot take the place of Prarabdha (for a man of knowledge), as he has no other birth (being free from ego).

93. Just as the body in a dream is superimposed (and therefore illusory), so is also this body. How could there be any birth of the superimposed (body), and in the absence of birth (of the body) where is the room for that (i.e., Prarabdha) at all?

94. The Vedanta texts declare ignorance to be verily the material (cause) of the phenomenal world just as the earth is of a jar. That (ignorance) being destroyed, where can the universe subsist?

95. Just as a person out of confusion perceives only the snake leaving aside the rope, so does an ignorant person see only the phenomenal world without knowing the reality?

96. The real nature of the rope being known, the appearance of the snake no longer persists; so the substratum being known, the phenomenal world disappears completely.

97. The body also being within the phenomenal world (and therefore unreal), how could Prarabdha exist? It is, therefore, for the understanding of the ignorant alone that the Shruti speaks of Prarabdha.

98. “And all the actions of a man perish when he realizes that (Atman) which is both the higher and the lower”. Here the clear use of the plural by the Shruti is to negate Prarabdha as well.

99. If the ignorant still arbitrarily maintain this, they will not only involve themselves in two absurdities but will also run the risk of forgoing the Vedantic conclusion. So one should accept those Shrutis alone from which proceeds true knowledge.

Thus, the karma theory is based on the birth entity and it is the reality only for those people who believe the individual experience of birth, life, death, and the world as a reality. Sage Sri, Sankara says the world is an illusion.

If the world is an illusion then the individual experience of birth, life, and death which takes place within the illusory world is bound to be an illusion.

If the world is an illusion all the karmas performed within the illusory world are bound to be an illusion.

Sage Goudpada says:~ The merciful Veda teaches karma and Upasana to people of lower and middling intellect, while Jnana is taught to those of higher intellect.

Sage Sankara: ~ “Action (karma) cannot destroy ignorance, for it is not in conflict with or opposed to ignorance. Knowledge does verily destroy ignorance as light destroys deep darkness. -Atma Bodha.

The main purpose of Self-realization is to get rid of ignorance. If karma does not destroy ignorance then what is the use of sticking to the karma theory? Only people of lower and middling intellect stick to karma and Upasana and those of higher intellect choose the path of wisdom or the Atmic path. : ~ Santthosh Kumaar